Legislature(1997 - 1998)
02/20/1997 01:07 PM House RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 89 - SHUYAK ISLAND STATE PARK Number 1409 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was House Bill No. 89, "An Act relating to the Shuyak Island State Park." He said he had been working closely with the sponsor and the Kodiak Island Borough to come up with a consensus on a committee substitute. Number 1438 REPRESENTATIVE ALAN AUSTERMAN, sponsor of HB 89, said while the bill was fairly simple, the issues of adding new lands to parks and tying up lands in Alaska were complicated. He said the people of Kodiak Island had been working on this concept for some time now. He noted that Shuyak Island, the furthest north of a chain of islands, is fairly small compared to Afognak Island or Kodiak Island itself. REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN said the west side of Shuyak Island was already a state park. On the east side, some of the island was "tied up in what they call a marine habitat area." The area under consideration was in the middle. Owned by the Kodiak Island Borough, it had been deeded under an agreement with the state when the state was giving out lands to municipalities. REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN said the history of Shuyak Island was one of commercial and sport fishing, recreational use and hunting. On the southern end of the island was an old processing plant, which had been sold and converted into a recreational sport fishing and hunting lodge. He said there were probably five other pieces of patented land or mining claims in addition to the state and borough lands on Shuyak Island. Number 1549 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN explained that following settlement of the Exxon Valdez case, a large amount of money was put into the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill Trustee Council. They began looking for pieces of property that should be protected. When the land in question was chosen, Representative Austerman was on the Kodiak Island Borough assembly. He had taken part in negotiations to involve the Exxon Valdez trustees. The borough assembly had passed an ordinance establishing a permanent fund for maintaining borough buildings; that money would be available in the long term for Kodiak Island and all its schools, including the six villages on the island. "So we are looking forward to the finalization of all this," he said. Number 1650 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN acknowledged that some people were concerned about tying up more land. He said two-thirds of Kodiak Island is in a National Wildlife Refuge, with the other third being state and private holdings. Although the availability of land was a constant source of concern, he believed certain pieces of property were special and should not be logged or subjected to motorized use. "And we on Kodiak Island feel that Shuyak Island is that place for us," he stated. REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN explained the exclusion of all-terrain vehicles (ATVs). The terrain was not conducive to ATVs. It was heavily timbered, with only a few open areas right on top of the mountains. He believed the Kodiak community considered that when deciding they wanted this as a state park. He said, "Now, the deal that the Kodiak Island Borough struck with the Exxon Valdez, and have struck with the state parks, is that they put a lot of covenants on what the state parks could do with the property as well. And part of that was the ATVs, for example. Part of it was that there are six or so pieces of patented land and mining claims on there that needed to be recognized and not touched and not interfered with." Number 1742 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN briefly discussed CSHB 89(CRA). The question had been raised whether Kodiak Island should be protected further because the covenants were not in the original bill but in a separate agreement. The CSHB 89(CRA) version, which Representative Austerman had gone through, included those covenants; he had no problem with that. He said the only other issue that came up during the previous committee's hearing was in reference to firearms. He asked Co-Chairman Ogan whether that was covered in the current proposed committee substitute. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said yes. Number 1792 REPRESENTATIVE RAMONA BARNES asked, "When you looked at this park, did you look at finding land elsewhere that we could take a like amount of land and make it public, or other uses, take it out of the park system in exchange for putting this land into the park system?" Number 1815 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN said he had not, although there may have been other discussions at the borough level in the final stages of which he was unaware. He suggested someone from the Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation or the mayor of Kodiak might address that. Representative Austerman acknowledged the desire of some legislators for a "land-neutral" concept. He stated he had no problem with that, if it was required to protect areas needing protection and to open areas that should be opened. Number 1852 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN referred to language in Section 1 of CSHB 89(CRA) that said, "continued use of the area for sport and subsistence hunting and fishing, commercial fishing, trapping and recreational activities." He stated there was a "real donnybrook" between those entities. The legislature kept saying it was trying to bring the warring factions together between sports fishing and commercial fishing. Yet this bill added the separation again. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Representative Austerman to consider dropping the segregation between fishing activities. Instead, he suggested the wording "for hunting, fishing and trapping and recreational activities." He expressed the desire to keep this divisiveness out of new legislation and asked for Representative Austerman's thoughts. REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN replied that they had thought about that. He himself had added "commercial fishing" into the bill. One reason was that Shuyak Island historically had been a lucrative commercial fishing area, and he was concerned about excluding an industry that had been there so long. He was also concerned that if the bill just said "fishing," at some point the Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation might preclude commercial fishing. He said he did not look at it as being a divisive action. Rather, he looked at it more as a protection of the existing things already going on in that area. Number 1962 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said a significant amount of land was purchased as an outgrowth of the Exxon Valdez oil spill in Prince William Sound. He proposed finding out how much additional land had been "locked up" with the oil spill money. He expressed concern that Alaska, a resource state, was locking itself out. He suggested a potential a trade-off of these lands. Number 2039 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN said he did not have information on how much land the Exxon Valdez settlement had purchased. He knew it was a fair amount. However, one of the beauties Kodiak Island residents saw and felt was that two-thirds of the island was tied up in the federal National Wildlife Refuge, which protected them. REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN said before becoming a legislator, he fought with the National Wildlife Refuge tooth and nail because he thought they were too protective. Now he had served two years in the legislature and gone through battles over issues in Cook Inlet and the Kenai River, for example, about what is happening to the habitat and the wildlife resource. He was becoming ever more thankful for the National Wildlife Refuge because it had a tendency to keep Kodiak pristine enough so they could still enjoy it. He emphasized that it was still usable. REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN explained that nearby Afognak Island contained a lot of clear-cut area. "It's good economy," he said. "And you look at the old area where they clear-cut it before, and it's starting to grow back. But if you took the whole island and did that to it, then I think you've destroyed the pristine value of what you've got out there. So I think that you have to have that balance. And I think that on Kodiak, you've got it." REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN referred to Shuyak Island and indicated access to this valued pristine wilderness was by skiff or float plane. It offered the ability for a tourism industry that cannot be destroyed. He emphasized they were trading off the logging industry or other development for the tourism industry. Number 2166 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN offered a proposed committee substitute, 0- LS0382\B, Luckhaupt, 2/17/97. REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN advised that the mayor of Kodiak Island Borough and the assembly agreed with the changes in the proposed committee substitute. Number 2191 DAVID STANCLIFF, Legislative Assistant to Representative Scott Ogan, came forward to explain changes in the proposed committee substitute. He referred to Section 1, page 1, lines 7 through 15. He said the purposes section was changed to put it more in line with covenants and deed restrictions contained in the agreement between the Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation and the Kodiak Island Borough. It required the division to follow that agreement, which related to traditional uses. It also added commercial fishing as a traditional use. MR. STANCLIFF referred to Section 4, page 3, lines 26 through 30. He said the second change provided specific language to protect the Department of Fish and Game's management authority within the park. Not a new concept, it had been used in other land descriptions. Number 2275 MR. STANCLIFF referred to Section 5, page 4, lines 5 through 7. He said the third change related to the prohibition of weapons. The original bill had said "lawful use of a weapon." He explained, "This allows people within the park to use a weapon at all times for personal protection. And if there are going to be prohibitions, they should be for only during a time when the public safety is unduly threatened within that park." MR. STANCLIFF referred to Section 5, page 4, line 15. He said it added commercial fishing as a protected traditional use. MR. STANCLIFF referred to Section 6, page 4, lines 18 through 28. He said the most comprehensive change was language added by prior legislatures to shift the burden somewhat from the user to the department when an incompatibility was found within a state park. "This would require the commissioner to go through a series of steps and outline what that compatibility is, the specific area that it's going to occur in, the time that the incompatibility is going to exist and also the reasons for each compatibility," he explained. Mr. Stancliff said one other important provision in Section 6 was that traditional access to private land within the park was also included, which was not specifically stated in the previous bill. Number 2364 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES referred to page 4, line 7. She asked the meaning of the language, "and only at such times that public safety is unduly threatened". MR. STANCLIFF replied, "That would mean probably a circumstance ... where there was heavy camping in an area. And if people had been accustomed to using that area as a target practice area, and it to be an area where people camped heavily, the commissioner, ... both under the incompatible uses and this clause, could prohibit the use of a weapon there." Number 2394 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES suggested anytime there was vague language in legislation, somebody did mischief. She believed "unduly threatened" was too vague. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN concurred. He proposed a conceptual amendment that would strike "is unduly" from the language, leaving it saying, "and only such times that public safety is threatened." REPRESENTATIVE BARNES made a motion to adopt that amendment. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he would have used the term "public safety crisis." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN thought that was also subjective. He said a person with a gun in the woods might seem threatening to someone. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said that to him, the word "crisis" was far more restrictive than the proposed wording. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted there was a motion before the committee to adopt the amendment. He asked whether Representative Dyson still objected. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON withdrew his objection. TAPE 97-16, SIDE B Number 0006 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN suggested that since the committee substitute was not yet adopted, it could not be amended. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES withdrew her motion. She then made a motion that the committee adopt work draft 0-LS0382\B, Luckhaupt, 2/17/97. She asked unanimous consent. There being no objection, the work draft was before the committee. Number 0059 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES made a motion to amend the work draft on page 4, line 7, by striking the words "is unduly" following "public safety." The language would then read, "only at such times that public safety is threatened". She asked unanimous consent. There being no objection, the amendment was adopted. Number 0089 REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE referred to page 4, line 5, and asked whether it might be necessary to define "weapon." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied that he would broadly interpret that to be firearms, bow and arrow, a knife, or any other form of weapon. He asked whether anyone present could address that. Number 0115 MR. STANCLIFF explained, "The drafters typically try to include a term broad enough to include anything that may be used to carry out the traditional activities in the area. And they don't want to be restrictive. So they have gone to the term "weapon" as a broad term, to be all-inclusive." Number 0143 JIM STRATTON, Director, Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation, Department of Natural Resources, came forward to testify in support of HB 89. He said the existing park provided some of the best hunting and fishing opportunities in the entire state park system. When the park was created in 1984, the legislature provided for four public-use cabins, which had become some of the more popular in the entire park system, especially in August for the silver salmon run and in the fall for deer hunting. Travel through the park was primarily by float plane from Kodiak or Homer, which provided a significant economic boost to air taxi operators and guides in both communities. Number 0194 MR. STRATTON said HB 89 would perpetuate these fish, wildlife and recreation opportunities by expanding the park's boundaries to encompass two major pieces of land for which current and future uses were legally restricted for fish and wildlife habitat and public recreation purposes. The 9,009 acres of existing state land, delineated in blue on the map, were restricted by a legal settlement between the state and the Kodiak Island Borough. This legal settlement resulted from a disagreement over municipal entitlements and sets forth in a consent decree, signed in 1981, that these lands may only be used for wildlife habitat and public recreation. Plans for that acreage to become a state game refuge were never completed; it was now included in this park expansion bill. MR. STRATTON said in 1996, the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill (EVOS) Trustee Council purchased the lands delineated on the map in yellow. He noted these were the lands that Representative Austerman had spoken about that brought funds to the Kodiak Island Borough; the borough was using those funds for a local permanent fund. Mr. Stratton suggested that Mayor Selby might speak to that. "But the borough did sell the land with the expectation that it would be added to the park to perpetuate the fishing, hunting and recreational uses," Mr. Stratton said. "The conservation easement held on those properties by the federal government restricts uses to those which will maintain the existing fish and wildlife habitat and allow for public recreation." MR. STRATTON said the Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation has a long history of providing recreational access in a habitat- friendly manner and looked forward to providing that access in an expanded Shuyak Island State Park. Once those additions were established as part of the park system, the division would revise the current park master plan to include the new acreage in an island-wide plan for new trails, campsites, possible new cabin sites and anchorages. Those were reflected in the fiscal note. As funds and volunteers were made available, once the planning was done, the new access opportunities would be realized. Number 0264 MR. STRATTON said park designation does not diminish existing hunting, fishing or trapping rights on the island. He believed the committee substitute ensured that would be the case. He said the park's original 1984 legislation clearly intended for management of fish and game, especially commercial fishing, to be the responsibility of the Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G), not the Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation. However, the latter did work cooperatively with the ADF&G by managing two fish weir counting sites to help the ADF&G determine commercial fish openings. MR. STRATTON said management of Shuyak Island would cost the park system only a minimal amount, as they already had a seasonally staffed ranger station on the island and a volunteer program that brought two-to-four volunteers out every summer to assist the ranger. "The increased cost of management is for extra boat gas to access the shoreline of an expanded park," he explained. "We are currently expanding the visitor opportunities in the existing park through development of a trail system and a new visitor contact station funded by the state's Exxon Valdez criminal settlement through the Division of Parks marine recreation project." Number 0305 MR. STRATTON said Shuyak Island's existing reputation as a fishing and hunting destination in the late summer and fall is expanding as Alaskans, local tourism companies and adventure travelers from around the world discover its unique kayaking and small boating opportunities to not only fish but also observe marine mammals, sea birds and terrestrial wildlife. He believed the park expansion would add Shuyak Island to Alaska's other great park units as a topic for adventure travel and sports magazines seeking new destinations. He said designating the entire island as a park would add to its allure and increase its notoriety as an Alaska recreational destination. "This is good for Alaskan hunters, fishermen and boaters and good for those businesses providing transportation and support," he said. MR. STRATTON advised that he had reviewed the proposed committee substitute. He agreed with the intent to ensure that neither this park administration nor future ones restricted hunting, fishing and trapping opportunities on the island. He deferred to Craig Tillery. Number 0365 CRAIG TILLERY, Assistant Attorney General, Environmental Section, Civil Division (Anchorage), Department of Law, testified via teleconference. He referred to page 1, lines 7 and 8, which read, "In accordance with the covenants and deed restrictions set by the Kodiak Island Borough". He stated his assumption that the wording referred to the warranty deed for the portion of land acquired by the trustee council recently. Because this bill affected the entire park, a much greater area of land, he believed the wording was somewhat inconsistent. "However, certainly the things that you go on to list that are the way you go on to describe them do not present any problem at all legally," he stated. MR. TILLERY believed the sentence beginning "In accordance" was not only a bit inconsistent but also somewhat vague in that it did not specify which document it referred to. He suggested deleting that sentence and saying, "The purposes of establishing the park are" and continuing from there. "Other than that, everything that's changed in here is something that's really a matter of discretion for Parks," he said. "It doesn't create a legal problem with any of the deeds or restrictive covenants that I can see." Number 0428 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said he could see Mr. Tillery's point about inconsistency because while the bill covered the whole state park, it referred to the part recently conveyed to the state for the purpose of the park. He asked whether having this discussion on the record would be adequate if there were a court challenge. MR. TILLERY responded, "I don't know that a court would go back and look at this. I don't see this as bringing up an issue. I don't see a court challenge as based on this language. It only is sort of preparatory language. The meat of what the purposes are is in the clause that follows that. If you wish to leave it in here like this, I do not see it creating a legal problem. I simply point it out as something that I felt was a little ambiguous and was ... sort of inconsistent with perhaps what people were thinking when they wrote it. But I do not see this creating a legal problem." Number 0503 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said he wanted to see what had been designated over the past few years as park purchases and restricted use. He asked whether that was possible and whether Mr. Stratton would be the appropriate person to do it. MR. STRATTON responded, "I believe that's something we could put together in fairly short order for you." REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said, "I would sure like to see that because I think we need to know, as a committee, just what has happened and what is likely to happen in the future." Number 0539 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted that he had heard HB 89 in the previous committee. He had expressed concern to Mr. Stratton then about the ramifications of putting a state park where people hunted. He said the reason for drafting the committee substitute was to protect traditional lifestyles. "It's reasonable that we can call it a park," he said. "And certainly, the traditional uses will be protected in statute, and we won't be able to log or some of these other uses." Number 0577 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked whether the uses allowed in this park differed from other state park uses. MR. STRATTON responded, "Not significantly, no. You can hunt in all the state parks, with the exception of parts of Chugach State Park. Legislation was passed in 1984 that made it very clear that you can hunt in state parks, but ... part of that legislation allowed certain wildlife viewing areas in Chugach State Park to be off-limits to hunting, in consultation with and set by the Board of Game. But all the other parks are -- people hunt in them now." Number 0606 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN expressed concern about "fixing" this one and then having it subject to restrictions by future legislatures. He acknowledged that one legislature could not bind future ones. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said he shared those concerns. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES commented, "Indeed we did fix it in 1984 so that people could continue these traditional hunting -- and there was a big move that caused us to do that, because they were trying to drive the hunters out of these national parks and to get rid of firearms." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked which park Representative Barnes was referring to. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES said, "Well, it was throughout the state. So we did pass a law that says you could continue to use firearms in the park, and there's some language in there that allows them to restrict it on a very narrow basis. And I don't recall what that was but I do remember the battle that we had here over it. 'Cause ever since I've been in this legislature, they've been trying to lock up land and stop people from hunting and fishing and everything else. If you're a bird watcher, you've got it made." Number 0699 WILLY DUNNE, Chair, Kachemak Bay State Parks Citizen Advisory Board, testified via teleconference from Homer, saying he was a hunter, a fisherman and a bird watcher. He explained that because the advisory board had unanimously passed a resolution the previous week supporting CSHB 89(CRA), he could not speak to the proposed committee substitute. However, the board encompassed a broad range of user groups, including avid hunters and fishermen. Many board members used Kachemak Bay State Park for hunting and realized that was a valid use of state parks. He said they wanted the expansion of Shuyak State Park to increase recreational opportunities. MR. DUNNE said expansion made sense from an economic standpoint. Commercial operators in Homer flew people to Shuyak Island State Park. There were float plane operators, a commercial boat operator, and kayak outfitters operating there as well. This bill would expand those economic opportunities. MR. DUNNE said many people in his area viewed the bill as opening land to the public. In Homer and Kachemak Bay State Park, and on the Homer Spit especially, when land was developed and turned over to private ownership, "no trespassing" signs went up. That seemed to be the ultimate lock-up. Where people once could recreate, hunt and fish, they were no longer allowed. Number 0820 JEROME SELBY, Mayor, Kodiak Island Borough, testified via teleconference. He said Shuyak Island had been under consideration as a park for 15 to 20 years by the Kodiak community. In Kodiak, two or three people showing up for a public hearing was significant; ten indicated a major issue. However, 100 people showed up the night a proposal to dispose of this land came up in the early 1980s, saying, `Do not dispose of this land; put it into a state park.'" He said that feeling has grown over the years. MAYOR SELBY explained this land was selected by the trustee council because more species impacted by the Exxon Valdez oil spill used Shuyak Island than any other single piece of land in the oil spill region. "We look at it as being critical to developing the Kodiak Island tourism industry," he said. "We have a substantial opportunity here to diversify our economy, and the tourism use of Shuyak Island is a very important part of that overall plan." MAYOR SELBY said, "I guess we would differ with you significantly about the use of the word `lock-up.' We see this as a development of maybe a different type, because we see it being developed for a lot of tourism activity. The fact is that we use the heck out of this island." MAYOR SELBY said the island was small but had a rich ecosystem. It could be hiked across in a day, and people could hunt, fish and watch birds. Of the entire Kodiak archipelago, Shuyak Island was the crown jewel they wished to preserve for tourism development. MAYOR SELBY noted that Afognak Island, just south of Shuyak Island, was mostly privately owned and would be logged and clear-cut. "That gives us a balance," he said. "We're looking for a tourism spot here on the north end." He said private ownership and heavy logging on Afognak were one reason they had not proposed a trade- off in terms of land disposal. MAYOR SELBY said furthermore, the land in question was already public land of the Kodiak Island Borough. "We're just retaining it as public land, but now it's in the hands of the state," he said. "So we haven't really removed from the private sector anything." Number 0983 MAYOR SELBY stated support for inserting commercial fishing into the bill, as the area continues to be important for that activity. Shuyak Island was also used for some brown bear hunting and as a major deer hunting area. Many people came from Anchorage and the Kenai Peninsula area to hunt deer in the fall, as it was the most accessible island of the Kodiak archipelago with a healthy deer population. MAYOR SELBY advised, "We put the deed restrictions on it on purpose. The hunting and fishing is also protected by the deed restrictions, when we transferred the land, so that we've kind of gone parallel here with you in preparing this parks bill, because we felt that there's pretty much unanimous support from every interest group in Kodiak." MAYOR SELBY said, "Just for clarification, the state of Alaska now owns this island entirely. What we are asking you to do is adopt this bill, which places it into the state land status as a park, and that the primary reason that we chose park status to recommend to you folks was because that that means that it never comes up for disposal in the state land management system. Virtually every other type of land status in the state, at some point or another, it can come up and can be disposed of potentially. We didn't want it in that status." MAYOR SELBY said with the language in the bill, Shuyak Island will obviously be a heavily used parcel of land even though it has park status. He urged passage of the proposed committee substitute. Number 1101 TOM PEARSON testified via teleconference from Kodiak, saying he agreed with many of the previous speaker's statements. He believed the park had actually improved access to these public lands rather than locking them up. It enhanced both sport and commercial fishing by having volunteers maintain fish weirs on the island, providing timely information regarding commercial seasons, openings and closings. He found commercial and recreational fishing to be compatible in the park. He said while fishing recreationally, he had been able to outfish some of the seiners during commercial openings. He urged passage of the bill. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said, "We wanted to ensure that important lifestyle." He noted that the National Park System had closed commercial fishing in some areas. Number 1206 HANK PENNINGTON testified via teleconference from Kodiak. A 22- year resident of Kodiak Island, he had been writing an outdoor column for six years. Intimately familiar with Shuyak Island, he hunted, fished and photographed wildlife there. He complimented the state parks on their record to date in being "supportive, friendly and even enthusiastic in ensuring that the people that use the existing Shuyak State Park have that opportunity and it's a quality experience." MR. PENNINGTON said that attitude and those priorities were reflected in the existing Shuyak Island State Park Management Plan, dated March 1995. "And based on their performance in the past and the outlook for the future, and the restrictions or specific language you've put in your committee substitute on this bill, I have every confidence that that tradition is going to continue if this becomes a state park." He said it would be a serious misconception for someone to view inclusion of these lands in a park as any kind of restriction on outdoor activities including hunting, fishing and subsistence uses. MR. PENNINGTON spoke against use of all-terrain vehicles (ATVs) on Shuyak Island. He believed the highest point on the island was only 500 feet. The land was user-friendly in terms of foot traffic, and the bays and fjords provided excellent access from the water. He said the timber on the island would restrict use of ATVs. Even worse, much of the island was low, boggy, marshy areas where a single pass of an ATV would be extremely destructive. He encouraged including a prohibition in the bill against ATV use there. Number 1346 JOEL WATTUM testified via teleconference from Kodiak in support of the bill. He described Shuyak Island as small, pristine and having a nice ecosystem that would be easy to damage. He believed having the park there, with one active manager, was preferable to having several nonactive managers with no knowledge of uses occurring there. He said since the cabins were built, Shuyak Island was actually more available to people for recreational fishing and hunting opportunities. MR. WATTUM concurred with Mr. Pennington's testimony about ATVs. He believed it would be difficult to use ATVs there other than on game trails and beaches. Some places were even tough to walk through. Number 1483 KIM SCHMIDT came forward to testify in support of HB 89. A Juneau resident, she had been an Alaska State Parks volunteer on Shuyak Island in the summer of 1995. She had maintained cabins and trails and assisted park visitors. One of the most important responsibilities was managing a salmon weir to track the health of Shuyak's coho salmon runs. She said numerous commercial fishing openings brought boats from both Kodiak and Homer. MS. SCHMIDT noted the economic importance of the coho run. A late run, it afforded fishermen an opportunity to make up for losses earlier in the season. It also attracted sports fishing enthusiasts. During the run, cabins were booked solid, with some guests having to book cabins six months in advance. MS. SCHMIDT said on Shuyak Island, she had met Alaskans and both domestic and international travelers. Travel to Shuyak provided income for float plane pilots from Kodiak and the Kenai Peninsula, retailers and sports outfitters. She described Shuyak Island as spectacular even by Alaskan standards. She urged passage of the bill to enlarge a park already enjoyed extensively by Alaskans. Number 1604 MICHELE DRUMMOND came forward to testify. A Kodiak Island resident, she supported HB 89 and believed the park had plenty of support from the community. Number 1640 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN said the fiscal note had not been addressed in the previous committee. "It's $15,000," he said. "I would prefer that that become a zero note, that the amount of money that they're asking for is something that I think they can absorb in the park system already. If they're going to add new cabins in the area, the income from the rental of the cabins should cover boat gas and the things that the park is really interested in." Number 1680 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES said she had been going to make that motion. She did not believe the legislature should ever pass out fiscal notes as small as $15,000 or $1,000. "And certainly the departments can more than make up for it in their huge budgets," she said. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said in light of the state's fiscal crisis, he concurred. Number 1717 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES made a motion that the committee substitute for HB 89, Version B, as amended, move from the committee with individual recommendations. She further moved that the committee zero out the $15,000 fiscal note from the Department of Natural Resources and instead adopt a zero fiscal note. She suggested there would then be no need for the bill to go to the House Finance Committee. She asked for unanimous consent. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN objected for discussion and asked where the bill would go next if there were no zero fiscal note. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN advised that it had a House Finance Committee referral. Number 1780 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN requested that it be waived from the House Finance Committee and go straight to the House Rules Committee. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said he had no problem with moving the bill. However, he was concerned about only having a verbal commitment from the Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation to provide information. He wanted to see what lands had been withdrawn for park purposes, preferably on a map but certainly in a description, because he wanted to see how much land would not be available for private use. "And so I would really like to see that as almost a condition-after-the-fact to passing this bill out," he said. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES agreed. She suggested it would be preferable to have the "whole Department of Natural Resources relating to lands" show the committee on a map exactly how much state land was in parks and other uses. She indicated most of the land from the abolished Mental Health Trust went into parks. She expressed concern over the extremely small amount of private land in Alaska. She suggested the committee needed to see a map with overlays showing federal, state and municipal lands. She believed an entire meeting should be scheduled for that. Number 1955 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN withdrew his objection. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Stratton to plan on briefing the committee on that at his earliest convenience. Number 1970 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE referred to the fiscal note and stated, "I know $15,000 isn't much, but we often hear how sometimes various departments get mandated to do something but the dollars don't follow. And ... at $1,000, I can certainly see that, and maybe even at this amount. But I don't know what amount should be a cut- off point. And I guess I would just caution that we be careful about mandating without having money to follow where it might be needed." Number 2074 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether there was any objection to Representative Barnes's motion. There being no objection, CSHB 89(RES) moved from the House Resources Standing Committee with a zero fiscal note.
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